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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 12:16:34 GMT -6
What if some unethical business person (I'm not suggesting you because I don't think you would) opened an aquaponics store downtown and the business went belly up and they just walked away. Would tanks of dead fish be an extraordinary impact on neighboring businesses? I think after a few hot days it might. That may have been one of the concerns when the city requested you to locate the business in an "industrial " zone. There are a lot of questions that need to be addressed prior to approving aquaponics in my opinion. The issues may be easy to address but it would be up to you to address them in applying for a special use permit. Well then we better not allow grocery stores, they could go belly up and leave their product behind and create an extraordinary impact.
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Post by hawk on Oct 11, 2013 12:58:07 GMT -6
I didn't visit any facilities in communities that had near as many vacancies as we do. In Pontiac it was approved in a retail area, with the back of the building butting up to a residential unit, across a street form a school and a hospice facility. They will allow it next to their homes, kids and dying people, but we won't allow it around our dying buildings. Can you give me examples of communities that would only allow it in an industrial zone, preferably some that have as high of vacancy rates as here? Are you saying that they have set their standards higher than an Aquaponics facility that could create jobs, tax revenue , and a use for a long time vacancy and also draw tourists for our downtown? What are they expecting will fill the empty buildings so the owners have income to improve them? What industrial zone requiring use do you think they most closely related selling plants and fish to? I was expecting you to use the Pontiac example. As I have come to find out is that location is not in the heart of the downtown. Its actually approx. 10 blocks from the Courthouse. The other sad part about this example is that it never open or if it did it was for a very very short period of time, because it's not open now. Or hasn't been since you first brought it up. So you said you visited many, Whats the next one thats in the downtown area?
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 13:10:13 GMT -6
I never said that I knew of any that were in a downtown area.
It doesn't matter if Pontiac ever opened, they approved it for that location.
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Post by northsider on Oct 11, 2013 13:11:21 GMT -6
I notice you picked up on the term extraordinary impact. I guess we will be hearing a new phrase from now on. You seemed to have glossed over the fact that the section I cited mentioned uses significantly unique to those uses permitted require a special use permit. Are you going to say that aquaponics isn't significantly unique from a greenhouse? I mentioned just one question off the top of my head about possible impacts. I'm sure there are others. How big are the tanks? 10, 50, 100, 10000 gallons? How many fish? 10, 50, 100, 10000? Are you selling the fish alive or cleaning them in site? Are there any chemicals that would be sent into the sewer system? These issues could all impact neighboring businesses. I could go on and on. I'm sure you could answer all of these questions but the time and place to answer them would be at a planning commission meeting to discuss a special use permit. It sounds like you wanted the City to okay the project based on your word that it's the same as a greenhouse. Well, it's not the same. It would be up to you to present your case as to why a special use should be granted. You would have to do the same thing in LaSalle, Ottawa, and probably any other city that doesn't currently have aquaponics. Let's face it, you dropped the ball. Still waiting for that section that spells out industrial zoning.
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Post by hawk on Oct 11, 2013 13:15:46 GMT -6
What if some unethical business person (I'm not suggesting you because I don't think you would) opened an aquaponics store downtown and the business went belly up and they just walked away. Would tanks of dead fish be an extraordinary impact on neighboring businesses? I think after a few hot days it might. That may have been one of the concerns when the city requested you to locate the business in an "industrial " zone. There are a lot of questions that need to be addressed prior to approving aquaponics in my opinion. The issues may be easy to address but it would be up to you to address them in applying for a special use permit. I was thinking the same thing. What about if the tank developed a leak at some point and infestations.
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Post by hawk on Oct 11, 2013 13:25:58 GMT -6
I never said that I knew of any that were in a downtown area. It doesn't matter if Pontiac ever opened, they approved it for that location. I asked you specifically where any you visited in the CBD and if so which ones. you answered with Pontiac as your only example. You have alluded in the past that the one in Pontiac was in the downtown. I think the fact that the one you want to open is located in the heart of downtown is a very important factor.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 15:02:29 GMT -6
I never said that I knew of any that were in a downtown area. It doesn't matter if Pontiac ever opened, they approved it for that location. I asked you specifically where any you visited in the CBD and if so which ones. you answered with Pontiac as your only example. You have alluded in the past that the one in Pontiac was in the downtown. I think the fact that the one you want to open is located in the heart of downtown is a very important factor. Sorry Hawk, I was not trying to deceive anyone to think the Pontiac approved location was downtown. It was not intended to be a direct answer to your question, but a statement as to how it was approved in an area with children, dying people and residences. I also think the fact the the one I wanted open was located in the heart of an empty downtown is a very important factor. LaSalle and Ottawa have both been very receptive to having it in their CBD.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 15:36:24 GMT -6
What about if the tank developed a leak at some point and infestations. A leak would be a serious problem because the water is the life-line of all the product, contains the nutrients, and can not be replaced with just tap water, so it would have to repaired ASAP. Now compare that to if a supply line to a sink in a vacant building that no one goes into for months on end were to burst as some point. How much damage could be done before someone realized? As far as infestation, it is a controlled environment, I really don't see it being a problem, but we already know that our City will be quick to act on shutting down any business with that type of problem. Should greenhouses be required to have industrial zoning too, since they would also be susceptible to infestation?
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Post by northsider on Oct 11, 2013 16:04:30 GMT -6
Where is the industrial zoning located?
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 16:33:36 GMT -6
I notice you picked up on the term extraordinary impact. I guess we will be hearing a new phrase from now on. You seemed to have glossed over the fact that the section I cited mentioned uses significantly unique to those uses permitted require a special use permit. Are you going to say that aquaponics isn't significantly unique from a greenhouse? Then why wouldn't they have just told me that I needed a special use permit? Instead they gave me an extreme restriction that no one has been able to provide a justification for. With a special use permit they would still have to approve it and could just deny it if they felt it was a problem. By setting the restriction extremely high, they were able to stop it completely. So, if a special use permit is what was really required by our laws, why didn't they just tell me a special use permit and have me go through the process? I mentioned just one question off the top of my head about possible impacts. I'm sure there are others. How big are the tanks? 10, 50, 100, 10000 gallons? How many fish? 10, 50, 100, 10000? Are you selling the fish alive or cleaning them in site? Are there any chemicals that would be sent into the sewer system? These issues could all impact neighboring businesses. I could go on and on. I'm sure you could answer all of these questions but the time and place to answer them would be at a planning commission meeting to discuss a special use permit. I answered many of those questions in my presentation to the City. If you did any research on Aquaponics at all, you would know that chemicals can not be used and that it is a closed loop system with virtually no waste (packaging from the fish food is the largest waste). The system wouldn't even be connected to the sewer. It sounds like you wanted the City to okay the project based on your word that it's the same as a greenhouse. You were saying before that I didn't provide them enough information, then I replied back that I gave them sources and it would be smarter for them to get more information on their own. I never said it was the same as a greenhouse. I said that I think greenhouses are the closest use. I've also said a pet store was a very close use. They are both allowed downtown. I should have just opened a combination greenhouse and a edible pet store, I could have just connected a couple of hoses and pump between them and no one probably would have known. Still waiting for that section that spells out industrial zoning. I thought you were pretending to be a person experienced with zoning ordinances. Haven't you ever seen the two terms used as synonyms? I used the word industrial because that is the word that the city used. Are you trying to say now that they gave me a restriction that is so extreme that it isn't even allowed anywhere here because we only have manufacturing zones and not industrial zones?
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Post by northsider on Oct 11, 2013 17:05:31 GMT -6
Manufacturing zones and industrial zones are not synonyms. IF they used the term industrial then I would say they were mistaken. What zoning did they suggest M-1 or M-2? I don't know why they didn't hold your hand throughout the entire process and look up any questions they had on their own. That would be a question that they would have to answer. I'm not claiming to be some kind of zoning expert but I have had experience in zoning matters. It's obvious that you don't. I only got started on this because you continually bring up the subject and fail to recognize that the problem may not have all been with the city being anti business. A good portion of the problem was you.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 17:24:36 GMT -6
IF they used the term industrial then I would say they were mistaken. That's what I've been saying, but they have been standing behind it. A good portion of the problem was you. So It's not about following our laws or allowing business, it's about the person?
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Post by northsider on Oct 11, 2013 17:48:38 GMT -6
I've noticed you say a lot of things and then after time passes and someone backs you into a corner you say something different. The Pontiac aquaponics is a good example.
It is about following the law and allowing business. You fail to grasp the concept that it was you that didn't follow the laws. I don't think you ever will.
It would be interesting to actually see the letter the City sent you that imposed the "extreme" restrictions that you claim.
That's all I've got to say, I'm done.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 11, 2013 18:01:47 GMT -6
Go ahead and be done, seeing as how you never were able to provide any justification for their restriction.
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