|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 9, 2013 16:21:53 GMT -6
Again with the Aquaponics Mr. Mitchell. Leave the city alone - get a life - spend time with your family and move on. What's the matter is one insignificant little person picking too hard on the City? Isn't the City able to take care of themselves, they need you to try to get me to leave them alone? All they would have to do is provide a real justification for their restriction. They shouldn't be giving out restrictions that they don't have justifications for, then people wouldn't be able to talk this way about them.
|
|
|
Post by dog on Oct 9, 2013 16:43:11 GMT -6
All they would have to do is provide a real justification for their restriction. So if someone from the city would say: "we feel that an aquaponics business is more like a factory the produces a product, rather than a greenhouse, you would let the issue drop? You do realize that their justification is based on a matter of opinion, just like it is only your opinion that it most closely relates to greenhouse activities, since aquaponics isnt specifically listed?
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 9, 2013 19:01:56 GMT -6
If they can show me a business activity that requires industrial zoning that truly is a closer business activity to raising fish and plants than greenhouses, then yes I will drop the issue.
Saying that it is their "opinion" that it is more closely related to a chemical processing plant because they both use a pump though, I would not accept. Operating the pump is not the main business activity of either business.
If someone came along that wanted to challenge our City in court, I doubt that a judge or jury would accept it either.
Raising and selling plants is a main business activity of both Aquaponics and greenhouses.
|
|
|
Post by hawk on Oct 9, 2013 19:11:27 GMT -6
I made an appointment, went to City Hall, made an oral presentation, gave them written information and links to get much more, and ask what was required. I kept asking if they needed more information or had concerns. Months later, they finally gave their restriction and provided no course for appeal of their decision, only an application for a zoning change. They never suggested that I make a presentation or go see anyone else about it. The building owner decided that he did not want to go against the City, since they were obviously not in support of it, so the project ended. Pet stores have pumps and artificial lighting, should they require industrial zoning? If our laws actually supported the restriction I wouldn't have a problem with it, but to give out just any restriction they want is wrong in my opinion. This thread is not about Aquaponics though, if you want to talk about the details of it, please start a new thread or pull up one of the existing ones. I'm sorry Rocket I thought that I could use it as an example without having it railroad your thread. I agree with dog with his above statement. I would also like to add that they gave you the option to prove them wrong by giving you an application to change the zoning. However you took it as the city put up a wall and a slap in the face. You gave up, and screamed bloody murder practically about the whole thing. When all you had to do was convince p&z why it shouldn't be industrial. Have you ever heard the term "All good things are difficult to achieve" or "When it is obvious that the goals cannot be reached, don't adjust the goals, adjust the action steps."
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 9, 2013 20:08:10 GMT -6
All I had to do was go to P&Z asking for a zoning change and convince them to go against the Mayor, City Manager, and Community Development Director's decision and not require it at all?
If they were elected officials and answered to the voters I would say there could be a chance of that happening, but aren't P&Z members Mayor appointees?
I didn't give up, when the City administration showed not only a lack of support but opposition to the project, the owner of the building, not wanting to fight the City, withdrew his interest in doing the project at all.
I am not screaming bloody murder at all, just stating that I think it is wrong for our City to give out restrictions that are not justified by our laws, and then standing up to all of the attacks from all of the different members of the cheer leading squad.
|
|
|
Post by northsider on Oct 9, 2013 21:57:34 GMT -6
I would hardly say I'm on the cities cheerleading squad. I haven't lived in Streator for that long and I've never had a conversation with any councilman or mayor either past or present. I'm just tired of the same old story about the supposed restrictions the city placed on your project. It appears that from whatever information you gave them that they felt that commercial zoning wasn't appropriate. I'll ask again since you've haven't answered the two previous times I've asked, in your research where has aquaponics been approved by simply writing a letter to the mayor? Face it, you tried to take a shortcut and it didn't work.
|
|
|
Post by chevypower on Oct 9, 2013 22:29:48 GMT -6
When you go for a proposal or any type of grant, you had better not go in half cocked and dot you're I (s) and cross you're t (s) I go along with Northsider and dog on this issue, I feel if everything was done right, they would have possibly gone through with you're plans. jmo
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 10, 2013 6:22:02 GMT -6
I would hardly say I'm on the cities cheerleading squad. I haven't lived in Streator for that long and I've never had a conversation with any councilman or mayor either past or present. I'm just tired of the same old story about the supposed restrictions the city placed on your project. It appears that from whatever information you gave them that they felt that commercial zoning wasn't appropriate. I'll ask again since you've haven't answered the two previous times I've asked, in your research where has aquaponics been approved by simply writing a letter to the mayor? Face it, you tried to take a shortcut and it didn't work. What difference would finding a community that allowed it with just a letter to their Mayor make? I didn't just write a letter to our Mayor, did you not read that I set up an appointment, went to City Hall and gave a presentation where I provided written information and links to much, much more? I worked on it for several months after making the presentation. I made phone calls and asked them every chance I had at meetings after that if they had any concerns, needed more information, or what I needed to do. Since you have been researching it, please provide the communities(other than Streator) that you found that would only allow it in an industrial zoned area. I can provide communities that did not require it to be in an industrial zoned location.
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 10, 2013 6:45:44 GMT -6
I don't know the zoning in Flanagan, but it is on a residential street and adjacent to houses, I'm pretty confident it isn't industrial.
In Pontiac it was approved in a commercial zone, across a small street from a school and a hospice facility and butting right up to a housing unit.
Reed Wilson, Ottawa's Economic Development Director said that they would allow it in their downtown area without any zoning change. There I made a shorter presentation to him and their mayor.
Don Alesky, LaSalle's Economic Development Director said they would allow it in their downtown area with just a special use permit and called approval "no big deal". There I just made a phone call to tell him about it, then he looked into it and called me back.
Other communities seem to have a vastly different attitude about it than here in Streator.
|
|
|
Post by father of two on Oct 10, 2013 6:52:18 GMT -6
If the City said they made a mistake and it could be allowed in the downtown area with no zoning change, would the project be back on?
|
|
|
Post by northsider on Oct 10, 2013 8:31:57 GMT -6
I think you're onto something now. LaSalle would approve it with no zoning change but require a special use permit which supposedly is no big deal. I would argue that point but that's beside the point. Anyway, how do you get a special use permit? You go to the city council to get refered to the planning commission, You go to the planning commission, give a presentation explaining how your business which is not listed as a particular use in that zone should be allowed, hold a public hearing, get a planning commission vote, proceed back to the council for their vote. No big deal. You say Ottawa would allow aquaponics downtown? Is it currently allowed in their downtown zoning? Did the Ottawa officials indicate a special use permit would be required. I have dealt with Ottawa council and planning &zoning and I can't believe you would get an approval for aquaponics downtown from a simple meeting if the downtown area isn't already zoned for it.
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 10, 2013 8:58:42 GMT -6
If the City said they made a mistake and it could be allowed in the downtown area with no zoning change, would the project be back on? Why, do you feel they made a mistake? When has the City ever admitted that they made a mistake and changed their decision? When they called us illegal residents when we weren't, we tried to get them to admit that our residency was indeed covered by the existing ordinances, explaining how the public attack on the integrity of business owners was harmful, but they ignored our plea. I really don't see our City ever admitting they were wrong, but if you want to talk hypotheticals, we can. If pigs start flying and the City admits after years of discussion about it, that they made a mistake and tells the building owner that they are in support of it, he might still do it. When it was asked on here a couple months ago I was more confident that he would do it, but now he seems very motivated to just get out of ownership of the building all together.
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 10, 2013 9:37:44 GMT -6
SOOOOOO.....you inquired about zoning for this project in neighboring cities and they said no problem, come on down.....Why? Are you planning to start up there? Or are you just trying to make yourself feel more oppressed by our City? What purpose is there in bothering those public officials if you don't have even the slightest intent to start up shop there? I understand, you feel like they made a bad judgement call about your project. Maybe they did, shame on them. Maybe, just as others have pointed out, you didn't go through the established procedures to get your plan approved properly, shame on you. We all make mistakes and drop the ball once in a while. Will you please stop complaining constantly about it? Do you think that is really constructive? Will that make things better? Do you think that will make them magically reconsider your project, call you up and say please please please come down and talk to us again? I am sure you know that if you want something Kyle, it takes vigilance sometimes, and I'll give you that Kyle, you have vigilance, but you have the wrong end of the horse harnessed. The Auquaponics is a good idea, it really is. You dropped the ball in your presentation by going through the wrong channels. The city also maybe made a wrong and hasty decision initially. Two wrongs certainly don't make a right. If you want this thing to happen, and you want it in a certain building right here in Streator, you haven't gone through all the procedures. If you don't want to pursue it, for crying out loud, drop it already. POOP or get off the pot. Maybe I will open a facility somewhere, time will tell. Actually, the City of LaSalle invited me over for a tour of their downtown area as part of their progressive marketing campaign to attempt to get businesses to relocate and open additional locations there. Something Streator doesn't do. They are very interested in having business there and I really doubt that they thought it was bothering them to look into a new business model as a possibility for their community. In Ottawa, I was already in a meeting with them to talk about what they would pay for as part of their facade improvement grant program. Again, something that Streator doesn't do. They had architectural renderings of possibilities made up even. It really didn't seem like it was a bother to them at all to look into Aquaponics, they felt that it fit in well with their botanical theme. I am not even asking the City of Streator to reconsider my project and I'm not complaining about it constantly. I only brought it up as an example of when a trip to P&Z might not be needed, it was others insisting on talking about it that has kept it going. I feel that pointing out that it was wrong and that I think our City needs to start doing things differently could end up being constructive. It's just one person's opinion though.
|
|
|
Post by Kyle Mitchell on Oct 10, 2013 10:53:46 GMT -6
I think you're onto something now. LaSalle would approve it with no zoning change but require a special use permit which supposedly is no big deal. I would argue that point but that's beside the point. Anyway, how do you get a special use permit? You go to the city council to get refered to the planning commission, You go to the planning commission, give a presentation explaining how your business which is not listed as a particular use in that zone should be allowed, hold a public hearing, get a planning commission vote, proceed back to the council for their vote. No big deal. You say Ottawa would allow aquaponics downtown? Is it currently allowed in their downtown zoning? Did the Ottawa officials indicate a special use permit would be required. I have dealt with Ottawa council and planning &zoning and I can't believe you would get an approval for aquaponics downtown from a simple meeting if the downtown area isn't already zoned for it. When Don Alesky said "no big deal", he was talking about the approval not the process. Meaning that they were accepting of the idea. Quite a contrast to our City's comment about approval, "an uphill battle". Clay Reed said that it would be allowed downtown without a zoning change, I remember his comment that it's not like we're dealing with something that can explode or anything. We didn't go into all of their requirements. He said that he would be happy to set up a meeting with building inspector, fire chief, etc. to find out what would be needed for the particular location. There is a big, big difference between asking for a special use permit and asking to change one lot in the middle of CBD to industrial zoning. Have you read our zoning ordinance? It says that it is not meant to be all inclusive of all business activities. That if a business activity is not listed, it should use the requirement of the next closest business activity. It doesn't need to be specifically called out in a zoning ordinance for it to be allowed. A pet store sells fish and is allowed in CBD without even a special use permit. Greenhouses sell plants and are allowed in CBD without even a special use permit. Selling fish and plants together isn't a big jump at all.
|
|
|
Post by northsider on Oct 10, 2013 11:28:23 GMT -6
So if I understand correctly, LaSalle and Ottawa didn't say it was outright allowed but that they were receptive to the idea and other steps would have to be taken. It sounds like would have to get a special use permit in both cities to open it in a commercial district. To answer you about Streator's zoning, no I have not read it. I have read many other cities and the fact that it says that it is not all inclusive is pretty standard. It is unrealistic to assume that every business type can be covered which is why special use permits are granted. If a business is similar in type to approved business's in a particular zoning district after going through to proper channels a special use permit is typically granted. It sounds like that is what LaSalle and Ottawa had in mind for you. Did you request from Streator a special use permit or did you simply want approval since in your mind it wasn't much different than a greenhouse or pet store? Frankly, you went about things wrong and you seem unwilling or unable to see that fact. Has it occurred to you that the Streator officials might be quite receptive to new business but they just aren't very receptive of you? Based on the fact that you basically call them criminals, can you blame them for not going out of their way to help you out?
|
|