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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 26, 2013 9:27:03 GMT -6
I have a letter on City letterhead, signed by the Mayor that says industrial zoning is required. And you have been asked repeatedly to post a copy of the letter on this site. You had no problem posting the commendation or whatever it was you received in AZ on here, what is the problem with posting it? If you already posted it, I must have missed it and apologize. You act as if I'm required to post it just because you asked for it. Yes, I posted the proclamation declaring Kyle & Cindy Mitchell Day in Flagstaff, I already had it as a file sitting on my computer. In order to scan the letter from the city, I would have to disconnect my printer and take it to hook up at another computer in the building. Not the end of the world, but why should I go through that trouble just because you asked? I remember asking many questions of you that were just ignored. You like to pick apart what I have to say, but do not even bother answering my questions, so why should I jump when you request something of me? It isn't my fault that you just don't want to believe me. I've been talking about this for years, here, in the newspaper and at council meetings; I've called politicians corrupt over it and have taken candidates to task over it at election time. If I were making it up, don't you think they would have called me out on it by now? Have you heard of Illinois Municipal Tort Immunity Law? It allows our City Council and administration to say whatever they want without any repercussions. They can call business owners illegal residents when they are not and business owners can not go back on them for damages. However it doesn't go the other way. If I say something about them that is not true, they can file suit against me and collect damages. Despite no one from our City coming forward, even to help save a club member from being voted out, and/or not filing suit to get me to stop, you still think I am lying? What good is posting a scan of a letter going to do? Wouldn't you still wonder if I had electronically altered it? If you really want to verify that I am not making this up, you could start answering my questions and then I would consider meeting you in person with the letter to allow your signature, fingerprint, and other forensic document experts to authenticate it. Would that even convince you of anything though? I doubt it. I bet you'd still be right here picking apart anything I have to say. I have no problem with that though, it continues to give me more opportunities to keep talking about the details of what they do. If you aren't proud of what they do, I would think that you would ask them to start doing things differently, instead of just trying to get me to stop talking about it. If you try to ignore the problems, they will still exist; change doesn't happen on its own, action is required.
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Post by dog on Dec 26, 2013 10:14:17 GMT -6
And you have been asked repeatedly to post a copy of the letter on this site. You had no problem posting the commendation or whatever it was you received in AZ on here, what is the problem with posting it? If you already posted it, I must have missed it and apologize. You act as if I'm required to post it just because you asked for it. Yes, I posted the proclamation declaring Kyle & Cindy Mitchell Day in Flagstaff, I already had it as a file sitting on my computer. In order to scan the letter from the city, I would have to disconnect my printer and take it to hook up at another computer in the building. Not the end of the world, but why should I go through that trouble just because you asked? I remember asking many questions of you that were just ignored. You like to pick apart what I have to say, but do not even bother answering my questions, so why should I jump when you request something of me? It isn't my fault that you just don't want to believe me. I've been talking about this for years, here, in the newspaper and at council meetings; I've called politicians corrupt over it and have taken candidates to task over it at election time. If I were making it up, don't you think they would have called me out on it by now? Have you heard of Illinois Municipal Tort Immunity Law? It allows our City Council and administration to say whatever they want without any repercussions. They can call business owners illegal residents when they are not and business owners can not go back on them for damages. However it doesn't go the other way. If I say something about them that is not true, they can file suit against me and collect damages. Despite no one from our City coming forward, even to help save a club member from being voted out, and/or not filing suit to get me to stop, you still think I am lying? What good is posting a scan of a letter going to do? Wouldn't you still wonder if I had electronically altered it? If you really want to verify that I am not making this up, you could start answering my questions and then I would consider meeting you in person with the letter to allow your signature, fingerprint, and other forensic document experts to authenticate it. Would that even convince you of anything though? I doubt it. I bet you'd still be right here picking apart anything I have to say. I have no problem with that though, it continues to give me more opportunities to keep talking about the details of what they do. If you aren't proud of what they do, I would think that you would ask them to start doing things differently, instead of just trying to get me to stop talking about it. If you try to ignore the problems, they will still exist; change doesn't happen on its own, action is required. I asked you for the copy of the letter ,not because I don't believe you received a letter, but because I think your interpretation of the letter will be different than how other people will interpret the letter. I dont think you will alter the document other than blacking out the personal information of the person who you were representing, which would be a good idea. Just like you say above, I don't answer your questions or when I start answering your questions, your reality is a little off. I answer almost all your questions, unless I miss one or if they scream of sarcasm. If there is a question of particular importance, I will do my best to answer them for you. After I am done with this post I will go back and see what questions I missed. Just like your last sentence, if you think I am just getting you to try and stop talking about it, then you don't really understand me. You have good goals but I think you go about it the wrong way, and aren't balanced in your effort.
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Post by dog on Dec 26, 2013 10:24:51 GMT -6
and for the life of him, he didnt understand why someone who already had a business in Streator, wouldnt know the proper procedure anyway. He said that is why you have a specific procedure to follow. As soon as you wanted to start a business that wasn't specifically listed in the zoning map, you should have been directed to the planning and zoning board. So which was it? Could he not figure out why I didn't already know to go to Planing & Zoning from my previous business dealings or did he recognize that this was a different situation and I should have been able to rely on City Hall to provide the proper information? The reference to your previous business dealings had nothing to do with whether zoning was needed or not. His comment was that a person who already has a few businesses under his belt would know how to go about starting a business in terms of zoning changes, licenses, regulations, etc. It is not a "which is it" question. We ALL agree that you should have been able to rely on the City Hall to provide you with the proper information or direct you to the proper procedure, and that appears to be something they are looking to address .
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Post by dog on Dec 26, 2013 10:34:51 GMT -6
You told me that they gave no legal or illegal restriction, but who are you? Are you a city official or anyone in a position of authority? I have a letter on City letterhead, signed by the Mayor that says industrial zoning is required. Unless you or anyone can show me how that requirement is within our laws, I will continue to consider it an illegal requirement. I thought this plan was supposed to be one that included citizen input. Is it just their plan being drafted now, or is it still my place to voice my opinions of what I want and don't want for our community? I agree that our state has problems too, but that doesn't mean that the local problems should not be addressed. You are right life is too short. Why are you spending so much time worrying about my worrying about the deterioration of our community? I spend so much time worrying about it because I feel strongly that the continually decreasing population and property values here will keep really hurting a community that I care about, if there is not change. However, I am just one insignificant person here voicing one opinion. Why is my opinion even worth your worry? Merry Christmas to you as well. I am just one insignificant person. like you are, giving my objective opinion on the subject. I try to be unbiased as I can, but if you want a totally unbiased opinion, ask a lawyer. I think he would agree with me. It is your place to voice your opinion of what you want and don't want for our community. The only reason I worry about your opinion is that although I agree with the causes you are trumpeting, I don't agree with what your opinion is of what problems are being blamed on other problems and what is the best course of action to fix these problems.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 26, 2013 22:17:58 GMT -6
I asked you for the copy of the letter ,not because I don't believe you received a letter, but because I think your interpretation of the letter will be different than how other people will interpret the letter. So you think that I just interpreted it to say that industrial zoning is required but that "other people" would interpret it to say something else? What difference would it make how "other people" interpret it, isn't it only how I interpreted it and how the City intended it to be interpreted that really matters? Don't you think that if I was just interpreting it differently than the way the City had intended, that they would have responded to correct my interpretation after one of my council meeting talks about it, one of my letters to them requesting justification for it, or one of my letters about it in the paper? your reality is a little off. Thank you. I will take that as a compliment considering that it is coming from someone who, despite the Mayor saying in a newspaper article that people should set up a meeting with him to find out what is required, says that going to Planning & Zoning is really the proper procedure. I did what the Mayor says should be done but you want to claim that I followed the wrong procedure? Was the Mayor lying about the real procedure? I'm just trying to understand your reality. BTW, have you ever considered that maybe it could really be your reality that is a little off?
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 26, 2013 22:40:58 GMT -6
The reference to your previous business dealings had nothing to do with whether zoning was needed or not. His comment was that a person who already has a few businesses under his belt would know how to go about starting a business in terms of zoning changes, licenses, regulations, etc. So opening businesses that I never went to P&Z at all for is supposed to make me an expert on our entire zoning ordinance and should have kept me from asking City Hall for clarification of what they would require? Wow, my reality is a lot off from yours!
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 26, 2013 23:14:35 GMT -6
I am just one insignificant person. like you are, giving my objective opinion on the subject. I try to be unbiased as I can, but if you want a totally unbiased opinion, ask a lawyer. I think he would agree with me. That's what I thought, and since you are just another insignificant person, there is no reason that I should accept your opinion that they did not give me a legal or illegal requirement. My name is Kyle Mitchell, I am a visible member of the community and I stand behind what I say. Since in addition to being an insignificant person, you are also just another anonymous poster, I see even less reason to accept your opinion. Since you were not directly involved with the situation and I was, I see even less reason to accept your opinion. Why would I ask a lawyer's opinion? In my reality, I don't need a lawyer's opinion to talk about what our City leaders have done, because it is my first amendment right.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 26, 2013 23:29:34 GMT -6
if you think I am just getting you to try and stop talking about it, then you don't really understand me. I never claimed to understand you. Yes Kyle, you are being unfair with your constant ranting and "talking about it". Life is really too short to worry about this as much as you do. In your reality, were these some words of encouragement, for me to keep talking?
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Post by dog on Dec 27, 2013 12:33:15 GMT -6
I think that Mayor Lansford stepping up to be a point man is a good idea. He can direct prospective businesses to the correct source of information, whether it be himself, the city manager, the council as a whole, the planning commission, SACCI,etc
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 27, 2013 15:24:47 GMT -6
I think that Mayor Lansford stepping up to be a point man is a good idea. He can direct prospective businesses to the correct source of information, whether it be himself, the city manager, the council as a whole, the planning commission, SACCI,etc ??? You give me a lot of crap for going to the Mayor to get the information that I needed saying that it was the wrong procedure, but now you say it is a good idea to go to him??? It sure must get frustrating living in your reality! Considering that I went to him and was given bogus information that goes against our laws and my requests for his justification just get ignored, please forgive me for not agreeing that it is a good idea. Having someone available at City Hall that would give the proper information would be a great idea, that is one of the reasons I have been advocating for change.
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Post by dog on Dec 27, 2013 17:57:26 GMT -6
I think that Mayor Lansford stepping up to be a point man is a good idea. He can direct prospective businesses to the correct source of information, whether it be himself, the city manager, the council as a whole, the planning commission, SACCI,etc You give me a lot of crap for going to the Mayor to get the information that I needed saying that it was the wrong procedure, but now you say it is a good idea to go to him??? It sure must get frustrating living in your reality! Considering that I went to him and was given bogus information that goes against our laws and my requests for his justification just get ignored, please forgive me for not agreeing that it is a good idea. Having someone available at City Hall that would give the proper information would be a great idea, that is one of the reasons I have been advocating for change. This is where I call your comprehension skills or lack there of into play. It wasn't wrong of you to go see the mayor, but the mayor should have directed you to the zoning commission since aquaponics wasn't a specifically listed business. He should have reserved any comment on the issue until the proper time in the process. In my opinion, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing by speaking for what he thought would be required. Until I see a copy of the letter, I am going to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt and say that his position was that you would PROBABLY need industrial zoning. I think he has also learned from his experiences with you and will be better prepared to deal with similar situations in the future. I am sure by now you are aware of the procedures on how the zoning board works, along with the appeals process which would officially give justification for their actions. You may get the change you desire in the 2015 elections, but for now, I will try to show support for the people in charge, to counteract your negativity towards them.
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Post by dog on Dec 27, 2013 18:06:13 GMT -6
Why would I ask a lawyer's opinion? In my reality, I don't need a lawyer's opinion to talk about what our City leaders have done, because it is my first amendment right. My reference to the lawyer was not about discussing your right to talk about what the city leaders have done. There is no question you do have the right. My problem is I don't think you are factual in making some of your points and arguments. My question is just because you have a letter on a city letterhead, does that make the letter the official ruling of the City of Streator in regards to aquaponics in the zoning map? I think it doesn't, that is why a suggested talking to someone who is more versed in the subject , such as a lawyer.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 27, 2013 23:26:16 GMT -6
You give me a lot of crap for going to the Mayor to get the information that I needed saying that it was the wrong procedure, but now you say it is a good idea to go to him??? It sure must get frustrating living in your reality! Considering that I went to him and was given bogus information that goes against our laws and my requests for his justification just get ignored, please forgive me for not agreeing that it is a good idea. Having someone available at City Hall that would give the proper information would be a great idea, that is one of the reasons I have been advocating for change. This is where I call your comprehension skills or lack there of into play. It wasn't wrong of you to go see the mayor, but the mayor should have directed you to the zoning commission since aquaponics wasn't a specifically listed business. He should have reserved any comment on the issue until the proper time in the process. In my opinion, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing by speaking for what he thought would be required. Until I see a copy of the letter, I am going to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt and say that his position was that you would PROBABLY need industrial zoning. I think he has also learned from his experiences with you and will be better prepared to deal with similar situations in the future. I am sure by now you are aware of the procedures on how the zoning board works, along with the appeals process which would officially give justification for their actions. You may get the change you desire in the 2015 elections, but for now, I will try to show support for the people in charge, to counteract your negativity towards them. You must admit that you giving me so much grief for so long for not following the proper procedure would make it hard to comprehend that you are now blaming the Mayor for not providing the proper information. I am very pleased to hear you now say that; it's not very inviting to business, wouldn't you agree? I assure you that "PROBABLY" was not included in the sentence that says industrial zoning "is" required. Even if they meant probably, what business activity requiring industrial zoning do you think they most closely related it to, to even say industrial zoning could possibly be required? After they spent months and months(with several reminders/offers of more info from me) to make their decision, it is one that just makes no sense at all (unless you have a good answer to the question above). I've attended a few P&Z meetings and already had a pretty good idea of how they work. Two things that I am very aware of about P&Z, is that they are Mayoral appointees, and they only make recommendations to the Council. The negativity is just me talking about what has happened. You will support them just to try to counteract what I say? Yeah, that sounds like a real unbiased statement.
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Post by Kyle Mitchell on Dec 28, 2013 0:00:23 GMT -6
Why would I ask a lawyer's opinion? In my reality, I don't need a lawyer's opinion to talk about what our City leaders have done, because it is my first amendment right. My reference to the lawyer was not about discussing your right to talk about what the city leaders have done. There is no question you do have the right. My problem is I don't think you are factual in making some of your points and arguments. My question is just because you have a letter on a city letterhead, does that make the letter the official ruling of the City of Streator in regards to aquaponics in the zoning map? I think it doesn't, that is why a suggested talking to someone who is more versed in the subject , such as a lawyer. I am confident that it was not factual when they publicly declared business owners illegal residents, but there isn't much I can do other than tell others about it. They can make all the claims they want factual or not, and we have no real recourse. If I make claims that are not factual, they have the right to file suit against me and collect damages, that is what keeps me from making any claims that I do not feel are factual. It doesn't matter if it is the official ruling, most up to date decision, supremely authorized idea, ultimately sanctified finding, final verdict, or any other type of requirement. It is the requirement given by our City Hall when a perspective business asked what would be required, and it stopped the business. Since I am only talking about what has happened and my opinions, why would I care what a lawyer has to say about it?
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Post by dog on Dec 28, 2013 10:27:35 GMT -6
This is where I call your comprehension skills or lack there of into play. It wasn't wrong of you to go see the mayor, but the mayor should have directed you to the zoning commission since aquaponics wasn't a specifically listed business. He should have reserved any comment on the issue until the proper time in the process. In my opinion, I believe he thought he was doing the right thing by speaking for what he thought would be required. Until I see a copy of the letter, I am going to give the mayor the benefit of the doubt and say that his position was that you would PROBABLY need industrial zoning. I think he has also learned from his experiences with you and will be better prepared to deal with similar situations in the future. I am sure by now you are aware of the procedures on how the zoning board works, along with the appeals process which would officially give justification for their actions. You may get the change you desire in the 2015 elections, but for now, I will try to show support for the people in charge, to counteract your negativity towards them. You must admit that you giving me so much grief for so long for not following the proper procedure would make it hard to comprehend that you are now blaming the Mayor for not providing the proper information. I am very pleased to hear you now say that; it's not very inviting to business, wouldn't you agree? I assure you that "PROBABLY" was not included in the sentence that says industrial zoning "is" required. Even if they meant probably, what business activity requiring industrial zoning do you think they most closely related it to, to even say industrial zoning could possibly be required? After they spent months and months(with several reminders/offers of more info from me) to make their decision, it is one that just makes no sense at all (unless you have a good answer to the question above). I've attended a few P&Z meetings and already had a pretty good idea of how they work. Two things that I am very aware of about P&Z, is that they are Mayoral appointees, and they only make recommendations to the Council. The negativity is just me talking about what has happened. You will support them just to try to counteract what I say? Yeah, that sounds like a real unbiased statement. Kyle, the nice thing about opinions, is that over a period of time, those opinions can change. Between, you and the Mayor, there is plenty of blame to go around. When it came to a potential zoning issue, the Mayor should have directed you to the zoning board. He should have not made any comment on it until it came time for the council to vote on the decision of the zoning board. You should and can still go to the zoning board and propose the business, argue for use in the current zoning map, challenge the cities decision in the appeals process and then ,demand their justification and the naming of the most closely related business activity. I would say that a small scale aquaponics business would not require an industrial zoning, but one that might occupy a large square footage with all the tanks, lighting, plumbing, etc, I would consider that an industrial setting. To me, it doesn't matter if you are producing a food product, or metal boxes. Something on that big of a scale is more industrial to me. That is my opinion and obviously your opinion is that it more closely fits a greenhouse setting. That is why since aquaponics isn't specifically listed as a use, it would be good for you to focus your efforts on getting it listed as a use. Focusing on that , in my opinion would be much more productive than constantly berating the city. Since you brought up the P&Z, do you think that since they are Mayoral appointees, they are biased towards the mayor or do you think the current board is fair and impartial? I may have been not clear in my comments in regards to supporting our current officials. I will try to clarify. I will not support them JUST to counteract what you say. If I feel what you have to say is not deserving, then I will defend them from you, or anyone else. If you or anyone else attack them on something I think they DO deserve, I will support you or anyone else. Hope that clears up my stance.
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