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Post by FZ on Aug 15, 2011 19:59:56 GMT -6
Are you looking at the same report I am looking at? Hypothetical?
If you claim the NIST cannot prove it got hot enough to damage the steel of the building, then conversely, you cannot produce anything close to the same standards, to the contrary.
as per the NIST report overview "...NIST acquired and organized nearly 7,000segments of video footage, totaling in excess of 150 hours and nearly 7,000photographs representing at least 185 photographers. This guided the Investigation Team's efforts to determine the condition of the buildings following the aircraft impact, the evolution of the fires, and the subsequent deterioration of the structure...
...NIST and its contractors compiled and reviewed tens of thousand of pages of documents; conducted interviews with over a thousand people who had been on the scene or who had been involved with the design, construction, and maintenance of the WTC; analyzed 236 pieces of steel that were obtained from the wreckage; performed laboratory tests, measured material properties, and performed computer simulations of the sequence of events that happened from the instant of aircraft impact to the initiation of collapse for each tower."
I'm glad this is where we are at. If you really have looked at the final reports, specifically the ones in the sections 1-5A thru 1-5G, you know what the stills show. I do. There is not one shred of credible evidence to support the claim that Fires were isolated or just a "few small fires"
This is where, to me, things fall apart. The Fires are just a small example... It comes down to having to flat out ignore whats in front of me. I can't do that and be objective.
The only other alternative is to say the NIST doctored the vid, photos, documents, lied, etc.
In conclusion, it's easy to say this to people who have little knowledge of the subject, but, if you are as familiar with the subject matter as you claim, can you in good faith tell me there is no basis, whatsoever, for the accepted explanations of 9/11 events?
On a side note: I urge anyone who has an interest in this subject to go to the link in my other post, pick out a section from the final draft that looks interesting and download it. Some of them are monsters, over 100MB, but they are an unbelievable insight into those events, and worth the time, even if it's just to skim over.
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 15, 2011 21:12:04 GMT -6
And no collapse? Surely this fire was hotter?
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Post by FZ on Aug 16, 2011 7:12:53 GMT -6
And no collapse? Surely this fire was hotter? Did the Beijing Fire you posted also have a Boeing 767 traveling at 545 miles per hour, impact the structure? I guess your post I quoted could be labeled as an ignore response, in more ways than one. Either you haven't looked at everything out there, including the NIST final reports, or you ignore whats out there in fear of what it shows. It's obvious you have deeply held convictions about the subject, and it's hard looking at things to the contrary. Either way it doesn't matter, it's the same result in the end...ie. It's hard to discuss a book when one only reads part of it. Anyway It's been a fun and interesting thread. The Events on 9/11 are quite the subject matter. Cheers!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2011 7:47:40 GMT -6
FZ, you have been, patient, couteous, and coherent in dealing with f12. He has ENDLESS bullsh!t to to support his nonsense,,absolutely ENDLESS.
He will always adhere to:
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Post by FZ on Aug 16, 2011 11:48:46 GMT -6
FZ, you have been, patient, couteous, and coherent in dealing with f12. He has ENDLESS bullsh!t to to support his nonsense,,absolutely ENDLESS.
BB, I wont go as far and say that all the points F12 brings up are BS or nonsense. There are actual legitimate questions out there. Even NIST had to make some educated leaps when there was a lack of evidence. (I can't just shoot out a list...but in the overviews and/or abstracts in the NIST reports I have read, they seem to acknowledge this, so that is why I say that.) My point, building on F12's dismissal of the NIST report, is that the report is a meticilous study of the matter, in scope and detail, with supported conclusions. If one want's dismiss it as hogwash, or even hypothetical guesses - then anything out there that contradicts the findings needs to be held to the same standards or higher standards.
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Post by FZ on Aug 16, 2011 11:49:19 GMT -6
FZ, you have been, patient, courteous, and coherent in dealing with f12. He has ENDLESS bullsh!t to to support his nonsense,,absolutely ENDLESS.
BB, I wont go as far and say that all the points F12 brings up are BS or nonsense. There are actual legitimate questions out there. Even NIST had to make some educated leaps when there was a lack of evidence. (I can't just shoot out a list...but in the overviews and/or abstracts in the NIST reports I have read, they seem to acknowledge this, so that is why I say that.) My point, building on F12's dismissal of the NIST report, is that the report is a meticulous study of the matter, in scope and detail, with supported conclusions. If one wants dismiss it as hogwash, or even hypothetical guesses - then anything out there that contradicts the findings needs to be held to the same standards or higher standards. *edit* sorry for the dbbl post - IDK what is up with these boards but I cannot delete the above posting.
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 16, 2011 21:12:55 GMT -6
Why haven't you touched the WTC workers standing in the impact holes ? I asked this question several times to no avail and no, it's not in the NIST report.
NIST has held footage and pictures the public has never seen. Why? It took many FOIA's and court requests for NIST to release footage earlier this year. There's tons of it. Lot's of heavy editing too!
NIST never explained how the buildings fell.
And the group of 1,400 Architects and Engineers probably made some "educated leaps" also, but who's to say which is the greater authority? A government group of couple dozen, looking forward to their nice pensions and benefits called NIST? Or over 1400 Architects and Engineers with nothing to gain and everything to lose?
NIST never answered several questions, that even you acknowledge , FZ.
Those and many other reasons are why NIST has no credence to me.
The other investigative report aka 9/11 Commission Report was even , more of a joke. Heck, half the commissioners are now on record either supporting another investigation or saying the original was a joke.(paraphrasing)
Henry Kissinger to head it? LOL the "jerrsey widows" protested like crazy over that and Kissinger was replaced with Zelikow. Wait the guy who wrote the book on what counrties the US should attack and how the US should shape and run the world after some"New Pearl Habor Event" ala 9/11. Wow , how convient!
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Post by robkersmarki on Aug 16, 2011 22:21:08 GMT -6
Clinton had threats on WTC during his administration. Its sick people can entertain this idea of the United States being in on this issue. Dumb ace conspiracy theorists Aka fuggin morons
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Post by FZ on Aug 17, 2011 7:17:24 GMT -6
Why haven't you touched the WTC workers standing in the impact holes ? I asked this question several times to no avail and no, it's not in the NIST report.
Why haven't you shown your information/pictures?
NIST has held footage and pictures the public has never seen. Why? It took many FOIA's and court requests for NIST to release footage earlier this year. There's tons of it. Lot's of heavy editing too!
I think you are proving my case a couple posts ago. Are you saying the NIST doctored information and/or evidence?
Again, going right back to my points a few posts up about having to claim the NIST doctored evidence.
NIST never explained how the buildings fell.
The second page of the NIST study overview, they summarize the findings of just that question.
Again supporting my points in post 105 & 107. I'll put it again in a different way, no insult intended:
You either have not read the reports or you are lying right here with this statement.
And the group of 1,400 Architects and Engineers probably made some "educated leaps" also, but who's to say which is the greater authority? A government group of couple dozen, looking forward to their nice pensions and benefits called NIST? Or over 1400 Architects and Engineers with nothing to gain and everything to lose?
1)...To meet these goals, NIST complemented its in-house expertise with an array of specialists in key technical areas. In all, over 200 staff contributed to the Investigation... Direct from NIST.
2)The thing people like Richard Gage at architects and engineers for 9/11 truth have to lose is money.
AFAIK, it looks like a money making venture, or at least Gage has made out in years past it seems.
Why wouldn't he be doing this for free, like may out there whose viewpoint is not to profit, but to spread knowledge?
NIST never answered several questions, that even you acknowledge , FZ.
umm, Ok?
At least they seem too be transparent about their process of what they have to work with, and do not have to work with.
Again, something most, if not all, the Truther sites avoid - transparency.
Another point.
I like you F12
Those and many other reasons are why NIST has no credence to me.
Like a broken record: deny, ignore, change topic. (that trying to move the topic thing is below)
Sorry to say that, but you put it out here in black and white.
Thanks for the post. ;D
The other investigative report aka 9/11 Commission Report was even , more of a joke. Heck, half the commissioners are now on record either supporting another investigation or saying the original was a joke.(paraphrasing)
Henry Kissinger to head it? LOL the "jerrsey widows" protested like crazy over that and Kissinger was replaced with Zelikow. Wait the guy who wrote the book on what counrties the US should attack and how the US should shape and run the world after some"New Pearl Habor Event" ala 9/11. Wow , how convient! [/size]
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 17, 2011 16:31:01 GMT -6
Woman named waving for help in lower center of picture. Man in upper left corner. Hope you're not gonna tell me these are Superheroes or something!
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 17, 2011 16:32:54 GMT -6
Woman waving for help in lower center of picture. Man in upper left corner. Hope you're not gonna tell me these are Superheroes or something!
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Post by FZ on Aug 17, 2011 19:08:10 GMT -6
Woman waving for help in lower center of picture. Man in upper left corner. Hope you're not gonna tell me these are Superheroes or something! Wow, so sad. Trapped there like that... You know there were people actually jumping out of the towers. I wonder what could have drove them to jump to certain death? But unless I misunderstand F12, in your opinion these people could have just walked down the stairs or something? I mean, there's hardly any fires or anything... or they could have went up instead and waited to be rescued on the roof, because it would have been fairly easy to mount a chopper rescue with only "a couple small fires." All seriousness, how can you, or anyone, tell anything about that situation in the picture? The only thing it proves is the existence of a woman or man in those holes. That's it. I can speculate anything about the picture...you can speculate, heck anyone can, but the FACT is, it's only speculation.look, I think in the last couple posts you've stated your bottom line...in not so many words, but nonetheless: NIST doctored stuff and their work was a joke. Not only was 9/11 a cover up, but so was the NIST report. Lol, F12, you really should look at everything out there, especially the NIST final drafts...It's not like those reports will brainwash you or something just by looking at them. I think a curious mind would find it amazing how they pieced together a pretty solid conclusion on what happened, based on the evidence, instead of avoiding it like the plague. Isn't the "truth" movement about finding the Truth?
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 17, 2011 19:16:57 GMT -6
Real simple, if the heat was hot enough from these fires to weaken steel, how did these people survive ?
That's got to be 5 times I've asked the question now. Still no answer!
Do I have to post 50 newly released heavily edited NIST videos now?
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Post by FZ on Aug 18, 2011 11:58:47 GMT -6
Real simple, if the heat was hot enough from these fires to weaken steel, how did these people survive ?
That's got to be 5 times I've asked the question now. Still no answer!
Do I have to post 50 newly released heavily edited NIST videos now? F12, How many times are you going to ignore the answer I gave, and claim I didn't answer? You're speculating. Complete and utter speculation. How on earth do you make the leap this person was right there, or close to it, and survived the fireball and fires, all from that picture? I like some of your posts F12, but you really have painted yourself into a corner. You now claim a picture of a man and a woman looking out from a hole in a WTC tower show: A) the extent of the fires in the whole building. B) The Temperature of the fires in the whole building C) The condition and temperature of the steel in the whole building In addition to that, the NIST doctored and edited evidence, and their study and methods were a "joke" If you are really so confident in the things you believe, why so afraid of looking at all the information, not just the parts you like..? Mr Jowenko gave reasons WTC 1 and 2 fell, and along the same thought line as NIST. Is he considered a "Joke"?
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Post by freedom12 on Aug 18, 2011 16:41:23 GMT -6
NIST edited film's that were newly released earlier this year, is all I'm claiming and it is easily verified.
NO, to all three above. I would assume the fires caused by jet fuel would be the strongest/hottest nearest to where most of the jet fuel was? And the most abundant source of oxygen, the air from the hole where the plane hit?
Since hundred's of millions saw the huge fireballs where the planes impacted, they know most, if not all of the fuel, ignited as the fuel-laden wings smacked into the steel and concrete at 400 +knotts. If there was any fuel left, it would probably be towards the exterior of the building , where the impact ocurred.
Most of the office materials were fire-proof/ fire-resistant according to NYC codes for skyscrapers. Of course the fire would move towards it's oxygen source(the exterior holes punched by the plane) and not towards the interior(oxygen deprived).
Mr Jowenko was murdered in a car crash recently! I guess we won't be able to ask him to clarify his statements?
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